Bad Idea! New temple policy not to return any cards to patrons.
LegacyUser
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Kerry Petersen said: This comment is specific to LDS members doing temple work. Last week we went to the Raleigh Temple and they told us we were no longer allowed to have our temple cards returned to us after an ordinance is recorded. They explained this is a church-wide policy effective Jan. 1, 2020 for the purpose of keeping the cards overnight. Apparently, they explained, there are occasional errors in recording. When first recorded on the day of the ordinance, the cards are electronically scanned and witnessed by two people. They say that they are then to review all the cards the following day to make sure they were recorded the first day. They then retain the cards for two weeks and then shred them.
I don't believe this is really policy. I disperse temple cards to far-flung family throughout the United States. When complete they send me the cards back so I can record that data into our private software program. Not in one case in a hundred or so cards since Jan. 1 has any other temple not returned the original of the card.
The Raleigh Temple give patrons a card that states their policy. It reads:
"New Temple Procedure for Family Name Cards. To help reduce duplication of ordinance work and increase accuracy in recording, as directed by the First Presidency, the temple will retain all family name cards a the conclusion of your temple visit. Your will be notified through Familysearch Messages when ordinance have been recorded. you may also track completed ordinances on "FamilySearch.org" or the Family Tree app by viewing the list of reserved ordinances."
This was a great disappointment to us. Since we do not have a temple near us, we traveled a great distance to Raleigh. We were then planning to continue the work at other temples in our travels. We had 150 cards to do work for. The first step were baptisms. They said you realize you will not get any of your cards back after the baptisms, which essentially stopped ongoing work for us. They said you will now need to print the names again on your home computer for every ordinance and then reprint them again for each of the following ordinances. Since we were traveling in our RV, we had no access to a printer to continue the work. We were so surprised and disheartened, that we cancelled the trip and just went home.
What are the administrators really thinking? No patron that I talked to was happy about this. Some thought this was test temple. Even the temple workers were apologetic. But the Temple President and the Recorder were adamant that they were doing things correctly and that other temples are in breach of the handbook.
Not getting a return card with the stamped dates creates a hardship for us patrons. The slip incorporates a submission number with a barcode. This number is crucial in proving the ordinance occurred. Often as less exacting patrons jumble up the Family Tree, persons get "kidnapped" or lost in the tree. Replacement individuals are then created and the temple work is again duplicated. The only tool we have to combat this unnecessary duplication is to provide that barcode number to Family Search Data Admin who then can reinstate the temple data to the person. With the new policy, we no longer have any tool to prove the work. In the older days, we could access the microfilms of the temple ordinance books to prove the work. This went away in the modern age. Unfortunately the message system on FS does not give the receipt data. Also, since we move around 100s of cards among family, we lose the tool to know when a card is lost or just being held by the temple of the previous ordinance. I send them to multiple grandkids for baptism, who then send them to multiple others for intiatories, and so forth with many people handling cards before I get the completed card back. This is no longer can occur. Since I started doing temple work in 1973, I have always got a stamped receipt proving the work, which is not the same as a generic message on FS. No receipt = no proof.
Can anyone comment if the First Presidency really did make such a pronouncement and if in fact this is really policy? Is this the case of a misinterpretation by one temple? A FamilySearch manager comment on this would be appreciated.
Signed, Brother Disheartened.
I don't believe this is really policy. I disperse temple cards to far-flung family throughout the United States. When complete they send me the cards back so I can record that data into our private software program. Not in one case in a hundred or so cards since Jan. 1 has any other temple not returned the original of the card.
The Raleigh Temple give patrons a card that states their policy. It reads:
"New Temple Procedure for Family Name Cards. To help reduce duplication of ordinance work and increase accuracy in recording, as directed by the First Presidency, the temple will retain all family name cards a the conclusion of your temple visit. Your will be notified through Familysearch Messages when ordinance have been recorded. you may also track completed ordinances on "FamilySearch.org" or the Family Tree app by viewing the list of reserved ordinances."
This was a great disappointment to us. Since we do not have a temple near us, we traveled a great distance to Raleigh. We were then planning to continue the work at other temples in our travels. We had 150 cards to do work for. The first step were baptisms. They said you realize you will not get any of your cards back after the baptisms, which essentially stopped ongoing work for us. They said you will now need to print the names again on your home computer for every ordinance and then reprint them again for each of the following ordinances. Since we were traveling in our RV, we had no access to a printer to continue the work. We were so surprised and disheartened, that we cancelled the trip and just went home.
What are the administrators really thinking? No patron that I talked to was happy about this. Some thought this was test temple. Even the temple workers were apologetic. But the Temple President and the Recorder were adamant that they were doing things correctly and that other temples are in breach of the handbook.
Not getting a return card with the stamped dates creates a hardship for us patrons. The slip incorporates a submission number with a barcode. This number is crucial in proving the ordinance occurred. Often as less exacting patrons jumble up the Family Tree, persons get "kidnapped" or lost in the tree. Replacement individuals are then created and the temple work is again duplicated. The only tool we have to combat this unnecessary duplication is to provide that barcode number to Family Search Data Admin who then can reinstate the temple data to the person. With the new policy, we no longer have any tool to prove the work. In the older days, we could access the microfilms of the temple ordinance books to prove the work. This went away in the modern age. Unfortunately the message system on FS does not give the receipt data. Also, since we move around 100s of cards among family, we lose the tool to know when a card is lost or just being held by the temple of the previous ordinance. I send them to multiple grandkids for baptism, who then send them to multiple others for intiatories, and so forth with many people handling cards before I get the completed card back. This is no longer can occur. Since I started doing temple work in 1973, I have always got a stamped receipt proving the work, which is not the same as a generic message on FS. No receipt = no proof.
Can anyone comment if the First Presidency really did make such a pronouncement and if in fact this is really policy? Is this the case of a misinterpretation by one temple? A FamilySearch manager comment on this would be appreciated.
Signed, Brother Disheartened.
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Tom Huber said: This is a decision that was made by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve.
Note that this has nothing to do with FamilySearch, which means that concerns need to be taken up with your local Priesthood Leadership and/or the Temple. The following article is still "live" on FamilySearch and sets forth the reasons for the decision: https://www.familysearch.org/help/sal...0 -
Tom Huber said: A number of your comments are speculative, more than anything else. For instance, the ordinances are tracked in its own database and linked with the persons in the massive tree. They are not lost when merges take place, but may be replaced under certain circumstances. These are all separate issues and each should be posted in its own Discussion thread.0
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David Newton said: Yes this very much is policy. Yes there is a legitimate reason for it. That legitimate reason is exactly what was told to you: to reduce the misrecording of ordinances due to elimination of the rush to return ordinance cards after the performing of the ordinance itself.
"I disperse temple cards to far-flung family throughout the United States. When complete they send me the cards back so I can record that data into our private software program."
I'm afraid that's irrelevant to this policy decision. Your incidental use of ordinance cards to record such information is completely redundant. The ordinances are recorded in the main database and the absolute priority has to be to make sure the the information in that database is as accurate and current as possible.
You are far from the first person to complain about this and express that you record things in your own spreadsheet or database for your own use using returned ordinance cards. Judging by previous responses to such complaints those complaints will largely be ignored. Why? Changing much about what has been altered will defeat the primary purpose of those alterations.
Unfortunate about the distance traveled and perception of time wasted. Still at least you know about this for future reference. I'd suggest that you make sure others in your area are told about this to avoid them having an experience like you had.
I don't have any skin in this game at all as I'm not LDS. However I've certainly observed enough of these discussions to have a pretty good idea of what is going on and why.
As you would likely be told by others, take this matter up with your local priesthood leader and go up the chain to the First Presidency. Familysearch can do nothing about it.0 -
Lundgren said: I'm not a familysearch manager, but this has been the policy in Utah county for a while, to the consternation of some users. (These are among the busiest temples in the world if I am not mistaken,)
You will find other users comments on this forum in previous posts looking back a year or so.
I believe the plan is to go worldwide. This is not a familysearch policy, but a temple/church policy.
Helpful suggestions/comments I have seen are:
You will now get an email notification when the work is done, so you don't have to get the physical card back.
Only print out the ordinances you are going to do that day.
If the cost of printing is an issue for you, the temple will print for you at the record desk.
Allowing others (youth) to get their own ordinances will help them be more involved and familiar with familysearch. It is very easy to find family ordinances now with ordinances ready. A central manager can also share the ordinances with them though familysearch if you like having one person in control.
I didn't create or have any input/sway on the policy. I am just aware of it and can confirm that the temple is following the policy correctly.0 -
Amy Archibald said: The temple ordinance cards are a function of the temple recorder's office. They have given us the ability to print them in our homes. We can also have the recorder's office print them for us.
Since they primarily function as a recording tool, the Temple Department controls how they are used. They have determined that the recording of the ordinances is the most important part of the card. So they will retain the card to ensure the ordinances are recorded properly. Once they have determined they have been recorded, the cards will be destroyed as they have served their purpose.
The cards were never intended to be a receipt or a personal keepsake.0 -
Christine said: Brother Petersen, I am sorry that your temple trip was interrupted. In the future, as others have mentioned, after the baptisms are completed and recorded you could ask the recorder's office to print the next ordinances needed. My guess is they will be so glad to help you. Another plus for this new procedure is hopefully duplicates will be caught at each printing.0
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Tom Huber said: As has already been stated, FamilySearch has nothing to do with this new policy. You will need to take this up with your local Priesthood leadership and/or Temple Presidency. Sadly, no one in this forum can help.0
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Tom Huber said: Some added perspective. The Temple Department is an integral part of the mission(s) of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. FamilySearch is a supported department that works under the direction of the Temple Department to help support the mission from this side of that doorway we call death.0
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Tom Huber said: On your item B, yes, there is a method to accomplish what you want, which I have used for a number of years. It tracks and updates a local database on my computer with the ordinance data of all of those persons that I have linked together between FamilySearch Family Tree and my local database.
There are three fully-certified programs, including their free versions, which can download your ancestors and their descendants from the massive tree into a local database. The programs are Ancestral Quest, Legacy, and Roots Magic. All three must meet certain requirements to be fully certified.
Once downloaded, I use my Ancestral Quest program to update my local database and save a text file of the ordinance changes since the last time I ran the routine. I also use the same program to support living relatives with full documentation, something that isn't easy to do (though adding sources is now possible) on FamilySearch Family Tree.
Each of the three programs have their fans, so the choice is really yours to make as to which one you want to use. Then, when you have access to FamilySearch from where you are at, you can run the routine and get your local database updated. With Ancestral Quest, I can also record what person I have assigned or given an ordinance card to.0 -
Amy Archibald said: Someday ... the ordinance card process we currently use will all be electronic ...
The Lord is hastening his work. Ensuring that temple ordinances are correctly recorded is part of this hastening. If the Temple Department determines that the ordinance cards are to be retained for ordinance recording, that is their decision. The temple granted patrons the ability to print their own cards - this used to only be done in the temple and still continues to be a function of the temple recorder's office.
Anything that patrons have done in the past with returned cards was supplemental to the main purpose of the ordinance card. The main purpose is to record the ordinance.
Temple ordinances are recorded in the temple software and only reflective into FamilySearch. All ordinances are preserved as they were recorded.
I'm excited for all the new changes that we are seeing with temple work and will see this year and into the future.0 -
Brett said: All
I am certainly NOT excited with the "Change" (push) of NOT "Returning" the "Card" as "Ordinances" are "Completed" - at least, at the moment we have provision to ask for the "Card" to be "Returned" (for how long, that is the question).
Lets hope that the Work WITHOUT the "Cards" DOES NOT happen too soon.
That will be a disappointment to some, like myself.
I am certain that it will happen, just hope it is later, rather than sooner.
Brett
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Christine said: I am hopeful that this new procedure will lesson duplicates. I have seen patrons print cards, lose the card, print a new one, do the work on the new card, find the old card, and do the work on that one; meaning many people have temple work done for them multiple times. Hopefully this will force us (I am also guilty of printing a bunch of cards and keeping them in my little temple folder until we get to them) to only print a small amount at one time, which will lesson errors.
Often I discover a person someone else has printed an ordinance card for who I know is a duplicate of my relative who already had temple work done! I always message the person who printed the card, (after I merge) but I rarely get a response from them, which causes me to worry that they are using the previously printed card and duplicating the work.
I have helped do sealings where the person had cards that were printed years ago (on the blue and pink paper and beige paper when the temple printed them for us). I wondered how many of them were duplicates.0 -
Brett said: Kerry
Well said.
Brett
ps: I only hope the' powers to be' are LISTENING; or, in least, this message of yours PASSED onto them.
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Kerry Petersen said: They are like a hand in a glove. I have had success in the past in getting the Temple Department reconsider policy using this forum. The practice of large family vicarious sealings, which is now very common first started as a suggestion on this FamilySearch feedback. Thank you Temple Department.0
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Kerry Petersen said: I don'g think that determination has been fully decided. As directed by scripture, all things need to be pondered before the revelation comes. this apparently is also true on Church policy where testing is done on so many programs. I think this policy is only being tested now and our responses are appropriate and helpful. Hopefully our comments are inspired and help the work progress both at the patron level and at the temple level. This work is a great blessing for us all.0
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Kerry Petersen said: My goodness. Do you hire out? We could all use a little of your genius ability. I don't think my PAF program will measure up. One question though -- are you getting any card transactional numbers in the process you describe? If not, then we are still in the same predicament. Also does your system work when the Temple Dept. does not report temple work to Family Search (I am thinking of my Jewish Holocaust and notable family)?0
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David Roderick McLean said: Three thoughts for Kerry,
1. Since you are travelling in an RV, You can always go the recorders office and have them "reprint" the card at the temple. You can then use the reprinted card for the day which they can keep. You can keep your original. It's more work, but it allows you to do what you need to do while traveling.
2. At home you can "reprint" each ordinance four times and highlight the respective ordinance which the card is for with a yellow highlighter. You can then let the temple keep the card.
3. Eventually the "cards" will all be on our phones. Change is hard.
I agree, the new policy is "patron unfriendly". This is odd considering the Church is trying to make the temple a more patron friendly place. I agree with you it is a poor policy but has been in the works for over a year now and is unlikely to change.0 -
Jeniann Nielsen said: If you are currently using PAF I would most definitely change to Ancestral Quest. It can connect directly to the FamilySearch tree and will save you many hours of effort. The layout is also very similar to PAF and it will be easy to make the transition.
PAF hasn't been updated in 10 years and one day it's going to stop working on the current computers, you are taking a big risk using old software like that because one day it will not work and you will lose all of your data.0 -
Jeff Wiseman said: Kerry,
As Jeniann says, if you are familiar with PAF and have all of your records in PAF, then Ancestral quest is the FIRST tool you should try looking at. Among other things it can natively read and write PAF files. If you than convert them to the AQ format you then have a whole bunch of additional features available to you.
You can then save your AQ files as PAF files if you want, but you lose some of the really useful AQ features.
Note that the basic version of AQ (i.e., the FREE one) pretty well has all of the features that PAF had. So go ahead and get a free copy and import your PAF files into it and try it out. I suspect that you'll never look back :-)0 -
Kerry Petersen said: I see most of the missionaries at FHL are all using and recommended Roots Magic. Do you feel AQ to be better?0
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Jeniann Nielsen said: My personal preference is Roots Magic. Ancestral Quest is more similar to PAF so if you really like PAF you will probably like Ancestral Quest better. They both have quite similar features from what I've seen.0
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Jeff Wiseman said: They both have free versions I believe. Also, when you convert your PAF file into an AQ file, it creates a new AQ file leaving the original PAF untouched if you want. So there's really no risk in trying the free version.
I don't know how well RM will correctly translate PAF files over, or if you have to load your PAF files into a GEDCOM first and import it that way into RM or not. Perhaps someone else on the forum familiar with it could let us know.
I chose AQ because I had been running PAF since 1986. AQ is made by the same folks that were originally involved in PAF for the church. Basically PAF stopped being refined under the PAF name, but under the AQ name it continued to evolve. So essentially, AQ is the most current version of PAF.
Also when around the time they released AQ for the mac, FS was in transition between the New.FamilySeach database and the current FamilySearch data base. At that time, AQ was the ONLY product on the market that would let me compare a record in my AQ database with BOTH of the records in the New.FS database and the current FS database ALL AT THE SAME TIME! I could verify the transition between the 2 FS databases and whether or not FS had picked the appropriate attribute data during the transition (in MANY cases they had not).
From what little i've seen of Roots Magic, it has a very comparable set of feature but looks quite different from PAF. I was originally going to try RM out as well, but once I had gotten the AQ app loaded and running, it was so straight forward that I just never went on to looking at the other apps0 -
Justin Masters said: Roots Magic has this page: http://www.rootsmagic.com/PAF/default...
They have a videos spot, but the videos are flash, and if you can still get flash to run on your browser, you can watch them.. My recollection is that Rootsmagic will read the file in without converting to GEDCOM first.
[edit:] This free booklet says the same thing: http://files.rootsmagic.com/PAF-Book/...0 -
Jeff Wiseman said: Yep, looks like RM definitely does import PAF files. It won't allow you to open a PAF file and work in it the way the PAF program or Ancestral Quest does, but I don't think that is a problem for most people as they would just open the file and convert it into AQ format to get all of the features.
If a person had a large number of PAF files though, AQ would let you go through and open and view/edit any of them without having to convert them first. It can flip back and forth between PAF and AQ format very easily.0 -
Tom Huber said: I played around with all three programs many years ago and chose Ancestral Quest because of its printing features, especially for printing something like a Family History book. At this point, I do not want to have to learn a new system, so I'm staying with Ancestral Quest.0
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To Whom it May Concern at this time: I also would like to express a desire to have a verifiable way to show that temple work was done such as the stamped name cards have been. Please allow us a choice to be able to KEEP our completed temple name cards if we choose - even for those temples which are not now allowing return of any ordinance cards. ... and could our talented engineers come up with a way to indicate on temple cards that a patron wants to KEEP their completed cards, please?
Thank you for considering the need to verify as well as the need to record!!0 -
Brett said: Eunice
Firstly, "Welcome" to this "FamilySearch" ("GetStaisfaction") 'Feedback' Forum.
Secondly, "Official 'FamilySearch' Representatives", do monitor; and, sometimes, participate in, this Forum.
Thirdly, I am just another User/Patron, just like yourself (and, happen to be a Member of the Church).
Many Users/Patrons who regularly participate in this Forum who have a great deal of knowledge and experience with "FamilySearch", like to assist/help other Users/Patrons like yourself.
Finally, you are not alone.
Luckily, we can (SHOULD be able to) get the "Card" back if we so desire.
Here is a "Knowledge Article", within "FamilySearch", in regard to that:
Do temples still return family name cards?
https://www.familysearch.org/help/sal...
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Quote(s):
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Several temples no longer return family name cards to you after you do the ordinances. Instead, you receive a message through FamilySearch Messaging, confirming that the ordinance was completed and recorded.
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Participating temples
The following temples follow this new procedure:
Monticello Utah Temple
Mount Timpanogos Utah Temple
Oakland California Temple
Payson Utah Temple
Provo City Center Temple
Provo Utah Temple
Raleigh North Carolina Temple
Baton Rouge Louisiana Temple
[there are NOW other "Temples" that currently do not appear on this list]
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Frequently asked questions
[Q] ... What if I am doing temple work for a close relative and want the family name card returned to me?
[A] ... If you want a family name card returned to you, please speak with a member of the temple office staff.
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So, at the moment, at least, it SHOULD not be all 'doom and gloom' for those that WANT the "Return" of the "Cards" with the completed "Ordinances".
Best advice:
When you go to a "Temple", straight away, ask to speak to the "Temple Recorder"; or, a Member of the "Temple Presidency"; and, find out if that "Temple" will "Return" the "Cards", after EACH "Ordinance" is "Completed" and "Recorded", if so "Requested". At least, you know.
And, in regard to your local "Temple", if it is not returning the "Cards" even when so requested, ask the "Temple" for a "Copy" of Church "Policy" on the matter; and, even better, quote/show them the aforementioned "Knowledge Article", within "FamilySearch".
Brett
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Brett said: Eunice
Firstly, "Welcome" to this "FamilySearch" ("GetStaisfaction") 'Feedback' Forum.
Secondly, "Official 'FamilySearch' Representatives", do monitor; and, sometimes, participate in, this Forum.
Thirdly, I am just another User/Patron, just like yourself (and, happen to be a Member of the Church).
Many Users/Patrons who regularly participate in this Forum who have a great deal of knowledge and experience with "FamilySearch", like to assist/help other Users/Patrons like yourself.
Finally, you are not alone.
Luckily, we can (SHOULD be able to) get the "Card" back if we so desire.
Here is a "Knowledge Article", within "FamilySearch", in regard to that:
Do temples still return family name cards?
https://www.familysearch.org/help/sal...
==========
Quote(s):
------------------
Several temples no longer return family name cards to you after you do the ordinances. Instead, you receive a message through FamilySearch Messaging, confirming that the ordinance was completed and recorded.
------------------
Participating temples
The following temples follow this new procedure:
Monticello Utah Temple
Mount Timpanogos Utah Temple
Oakland California Temple
Payson Utah Temple
Provo City Center Temple
Provo Utah Temple
Raleigh North Carolina Temple
Baton Rouge Louisiana Temple
[there are NOW other "Temples" that currently do not appear on this list]
------------------
Frequently asked questions
[Q] ... What if I am doing temple work for a close relative and want the family name card returned to me?
[A] ... If you want a family name card returned to you, please speak with a member of the temple office staff.
==========
So, at the moment, at least, it SHOULD not be all 'doom and gloom' for those that WANT the "Return" of the "Cards" with the completed "Ordinances".
Best advice:
When you go to a "Temple", straight away, ask to speak to the "Temple Recorder"; or, a Member of the "Temple Presidency"; and, find out if that "Temple" will "Return" the "Cards", after EACH "Ordinance" is "Completed" and "Recorded", if so "Requested". At least, you know.
And, in regard to your local "Temple", if it is not returning the "Cards" even when so requested, ask the "Temple" for a "Copy" of Church "Policy" on the matter; and, even better, quote/show them the aforementioned "Knowledge Article", within "FamilySearch".
Brett
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Tom Huber said: As has been stated before, this is not a decision from FamilySearch. It comes from the Leadership of the Church, via the Temple Department.
No matter what we may want or desire, FamilySearch has no control over this decision. Like the postman who delivers your mail, FamilySearch provides the means, but is not the originator of the policies in regard to the temples or their policies.
If there are concerns over this change with regard to ordinance cards, then such concerns should always go through the proper channels as Brett has suggested.
FamilySearch as an organization and the Family History Department of which FamilySearch is a part, cannot do anything about this matter.0 -
Cherie Gardner Rawlings said: Tom, FamilySearch or The Family History Department may not be able to change the policy; but the wonderful, caring Mount Timpanogos Utah Temple workers specifically mentioned this forum as the place to express our concerns about this policy. They apparently have been giving all patrons (for several months now) specific directions on how to get here.
That being said I want to commend Kerry Petersen for his well laid out reasoning for why we need the cards returned and reiterate that there is no way Data Administration can solve the messes in my family tree without the old stamped FGS and/or returned cards. I know...I tried.
I have a family who came here before the Revolution and the professionals at the PA German Society were able find the hometown in Germany for my Kimberlin line. A very distant cousin (whom I met serendipitously and only talked to once) submitted and did the temple work during the era of Temple Ready.
Then, Newfamilysearch made a mess of it. (Whether by the engineers opening wide the algorithm or some human hand it mattereth not.) At least, while New.familysearch was open I could see the problems. But, now it is shut down and without the original research or temple cards I am stuck. (I did not submit it nor do I know the name of the man who did—only that I met him once at a park in Orem at a Dennison reunion between 1993-1995.)
For any temple work done during the era of Temple Ready (there is no IGI for that era) only the original temple cards can help resolve and fix problems.
My hope is that this will be read by those who created this policy and, hopefully, revisit this again.0