Inaccessible books – request for access rights verification
Hello,
I am interested in a book published in 4 volumes titled Famiglie notabili milanesi: cenni storici e genealogici, authored by Felice Calvi.
What is completely unclear is that only Volume 4 is marked as “Available Online”, and it can indeed be fully viewed and downloaded.
However, Volumes 1, 2, and 3 are marked as “Protected”, and therefore cannot be viewed online or downloaded.
Would it be possible to ask your team to verify the rights status? It seems hard to understand why copyright restrictions would apply differently to volumes of the same book.
It would be kind if you could check whether this can be unlocked, or at least explain why Volume 4 is available while the others are not.
Thank you very much.
Answers
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The collection https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/catalog/koha:128384
DGS 7960274 holds volumes 1-2, as Items 5-7.
DGS 7960275 holds volumes 3-4, with no item numbers.
DGS 7960274 lists Items 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6 as available.
DGS 7960275 contains several other publications as Items 1-4.
@SerraNola Could you please check the permissions on DGS 7960274, Item 2? 14 images appear padlocked.
And Item 7, 70 images are padlocked.
On DGS 7960275, all 408 images are accessible.
Thanks.
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Both of these are lacking an assigned date coverage which would produce an automatic restriction. I have sent it in because the place names do not match with what should be the date coverage. It will probably take about three weeks to a month for resolution. So sorry for the delay!
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Thanks for the quick response, @SerraNola
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No problem, I can wait. Thank you very much.
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https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/catalog/koha:128384
When I use this link, everything is inaccessible on my side. There’s a small warning triangle with an exclamation mark on the camera icon
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Those DGS are restricted to access at a FamilySearch Center or affiliate library. If you hover over the icon, you'll see the message.
Due to the apparent dating errors on some Items on DGS 7960274, as outlined above, it displays a different message from home, on hover.
When viewed at the FSC or affiliate, it's possible to see the Items separately and view the specific details I mentioned in my previous comment.
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Hello,
Any news about this problem ?
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I can only verify when I am at the FSC or Affiliate, but the message on hover, from home, indicates that the dating error has been corrected.
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Yes, these records are still available for consultation at FamilySearch Centers. However, they are still not accessible online.
Only Volume 4 is available online, and I still do not understand why Volumes 1, 2, and 3 are not.
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@Marc1980 The permissions settings for these volumes do not permit home viewing. They are only available at a FamilySearch Center or Affiliate Library. That status has not changed.
DGS 7960275, containing Vols 3 and 4, is only viewable at FSCs and ALs.
The publication dates listed are 1969 and 1975, meaning the books are still under copyright in the US. The copyright date would impact access permissions.1 -
I believe there is a problem somewhere, and that's why I created this post.
You wrote: "DGS 7960275, containing Volumes 3 and 4, can only be viewed at FamilySearch Centers (FSCs) and Affiliate Libraries (ALs)."
However, that is not the case.
→ Volume 4, specifically, can be viewed and downloaded in its entirety from my home computer. Please see the screenshot below as evidence.That is precisely why I have been saying from the beginning: why is Volume 4 available from any computer, while Volumes 1, 2, and 3 are not?
What is so special or different about Volume 4 that it has always been accessible, unlike Volumes 1, 2, and 3? It is the same work, published at the same time (between 1875 and 1885 !), simply divided into four volumes.In reality, the 1969 edition is nothing more than, to quote: "Anno edizione: 1969 RISTAMPA ANASTATICA DELL'EDIZIONE DI MILANO 1875/1885."
In other words, this means that the work published in 1969 is not a new revised or corrected edition, but rather a facsimile reproduction of the original 1875–1885 edition.
In principle, a facsimile reprint does not normally add any new intellectual creation. In many countries, a simple mechanical reproduction of a public domain work does not create a new copyright in the content itself.This is also logical, because otherwise it would be enough to republish a copy in order to continue benefiting from copyright protection indefinitely, and a work would never enter the public domain.
In principle, U.S. law only protects what is “original” (Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. § 102).A simple faithful reproduction of an existing work:
contains no originality
therefore cannot be protected by copyrightThis is confirmed by case law, in particular:
Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service (1991)
→ a mere copy, even if it required effort, is not protected without a minimum level of creativityFor example, major classical authors have had their works republished many times over the centuries, but this does not add any new copyright. The work remains in the public domain.
Thanks
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@Marc1980 said, in response to @Áine.ní.Donnghaile
You wrote: "DGS 7960275, containing Volumes 3 and 4, can only be viewed at FamilySearch Centers (FSCs) and Affiliate Libraries (ALs)."
However, that is not the case.
→ Volume 4, specifically, can be viewed and downloaded in its entirety from my home computer. Please see the screenshot below as evidence.
Re "that is not the case"
Marc can see what Áine cannot, because Marc is accessing Volume 4 via the Search / Books menu option, whereas Áine was using Search / Catalog on the DGS number - and Volume 4's permissions are different in the two facilities. (Yes, that is … not good).
As an ordinary user, I have absolutely zero understanding of how FS is supposed to deal with stuff that is, so far as I can see, present as both a digitised book and as a digitised "microfilm" - should both versions exist? No idea (though they do).
Perhaps the way forward given that Volume 4 in the Books is open access level, is to try for Volumes 1-3 to have the same Access Level (is the Identifier the operative thing? Vol 4 is 128001_04, Vol 3 is 128001_03 etc.)
It would seem absolutely logical that v1 thru 3 are out of copyright. Digitisation cannot, as stated above, create a new copyright. However, being pessimistic, we surely cannot rule out the possibility that volumes 1 thru 3 might have been digitised by someone else and have no access because of contractual reasons not copyright reasons.
I have looked at the new Records issue form and it is clearly not set up for Books, so I guess the Community is still the operative method for raising the Books issue.
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The DGS number is the only thing I was asked to investigate. The Digital Book Library is something else entirely.
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So who could give their opinion on this issue and understand why, in this "Digital book library", one book is available online (at home) and the other three are not?
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A few comments
The books in the FamilySearch digital library are not to be found in the main Catalog? Is that correct? I thought every thing was accessible from the main Catalog, but perhaps I am wrong.
Secondly the FamilySearch digital library catalog does not appear to capture date of publication. If it is captured, it is not displayed. So looking at the four volumes in the digital library
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/item/530629-famiglie-notabili-milanesi-cenni-storici-e-genealogici-v-04?offset=1 Volume 4, which is available full view.
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/item/581962-famiglie-notabili-milanesi-cenni-storici-e-genealogici-v-01?offset=4 Volume 1, not available
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/item/132554-famiglie-notabili-milanesi-cenni-storici-e-genealogici-v-02?offset=3 Volume 2, not available
Volume 3, not available.
I cannot see a date of publication anywhere, so I cannot tell whether these volumes are out of copyright, or in copyright. Looking inside Volume 4, I cannot see a date of publication but can see the word Ristampa which Google Translate tells me is Reprint, (originally published) 1875- 1885.
Looking in the catalog for the FamilySearch Library, I see there are some books of this title cataloged 1969.
If all the FS digital library books are scanned from the 1969 editions in the FS Library, from other instances of FamilySearch practice, I believe FamilySearch would take the view that all are still under copyright and are not available online. Some institutions take a different view, and believe the content is out of copyright. Why Volume 4 alone would be available to access online I do not know.
The FamilySearch Digital Library catalog is the ONLY catalog I have come across where the date of publication is not provided. To me this is a major failing. Over the years through this Forum, and an earlier Forum, I have made this comment, as have many others, without any notice at all being taken. I get the impression that the Digital Library is low down in FamilySearch's priorities.
In my view, to have to look in the catalog for the FamilySearch Library to find our something about a book in the FamilySearch Digital Library is very poor practice.
Edit: I know some institutions take the view in respect of reprints, that if the reprint date is not shown, copyright considerations apply as for the original date of publication. On that basis, the four volumes of this publication would be out of copyright.
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@MaureenE123 - I have not cross checked Digital Library entries v the main catalogue. I only know that, for the 4 volumes in question, the relevant catalog entries end up in different places, especially for v4, which is accessible online from 1 but not the other.
I'm not familiar enough with library catalogues to know what data is conventionally kept but imagine that, for identification purposes, publication date is crucial. Whether date of reprint is as crucial for cataloguing, I don't know. However, I am fairly certain that for authored works, it is not possible to determine the copyright expiry date just from printing and publication dates since the expiry depends on the dates of the authors' death(s).
I suspect, therefore, that it is not possible to derive copyright expiry dates from normal library catalogues - which I suspect is fair enough, that's not what they're intended for.
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I believe the question in this thread should be directed to the new Records Issue portal.
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@Marc1980 (sorry as mentioned above by @ Áine.ní.Donnghaile)
This discussion was started prior to the new procedure to report issues. So we thank you for bringing this record issue to our attention.
The FamilySearch Community is a place for collaboration and discussion to help users find answers and share solutions. However, this appears to be a records or system issue that cannot be resolved through community discussion alone.
Please complete the Records Issue Form so your concern can be reviewed by the appropriate team:
Submitting the form ensures your issue is properly documented, investigated, and routed to the correct team for possible resolution.
Thank you for helping improve FamilySearch records and for being a valued member of the FamilySearch Community.
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Thanks for you reply. It's ok, I'm gonna complete de "Records Issue Form" for this problem.
Edit : that's done !1 -
@Marc1980 Thank you for submitting your Records Issue in the FamilySearch Community. We appreciate you taking the time to report this.
Your concern has been shared with the appropriate team, and an investigation will be initiated. While we are not able to provide a specific timeframe for resolution, please know that your report is important to us.
We appreciate your diligence and dedication, and we will follow up with you as soon as we have more information to share.
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