India Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947
Hi Community
Hope you are all well.
I am researching the lives of my 2nd Great Grandfather who migrated to India and my Great Grandfather and Grandfather who were both born in India in the 19th Century.
This link returns a record for my Great Grandfather - William Chenot Downes Birth Date 11 Dec 1858 and is apparently of a Christening on 6 Jan 1859 in Bellary, Madras, India.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG4T-Z13
The image is unavailable.
My questions are
1/ Is there a way to view and save an image of this part of the original record itself?
2/ Where might I go to find my Great Grandfather's and/or Grandfather's Birth Certificate?
Many Thanks
Best Answers
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Ah I think I have found the record at https://www.findmypast.co.uk/
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The image is accessible on FindMyPast, who have the licence for the data from the British India Office. (This image may be accessible inside a FHC - I've no idea as I'm not a church member).
There are 2 ways of accessing the image via FindMyPast (payment is needed to see the image unless you're using a site with free access).
1) When you go to the URL that you quoted, you will see a reference to Similar Records including a similar record for "William Chenot Downes". If you click on that link, you will go to a record that has a link to "View on FindMyPast".
2) Alternatively, go to a library (or similar) with free access to FindMyPast. Set the search scope to Britain and Overseas/Unknown then search under Parish Baptisms for William Chenot Downes, birth 1858 +/-5y. The crucial bit is that search scope - it's under Britain first (which is probably not obvious), then click on Overseas/Unknown.
The image in question is a little different from the others, which are vaguely similar to Church of England entries. WCD's baptism is a typed sheet of paper apparently just stuck in the register at that point. The page is an extract from a Roman Catholic baptismal register from the Church of Our Lady of the Assumption at Bellary (presumably now Ballari in Karnataka state). Strangely it was produced in 1948 - maybe someone was doing their family history in 1948!
But it gets weirder on the next page - the details for the RC baptism at Bellary have been copied into the CofE style register (interesting - not seen that) but the names for William Sydney and William EC Downes have been swapped - William Sydney is recorded as the son and William EC the father. Presumably, that copied entry is the one in error rather than the type-written sheet given what you say and WCD's burial in 1919. But you'll need to sort it out yourself. I've gone as far as I can without (I hope) breaking FMP's Ts&Cs.
Well, that's interesting!
Re your Q2 - there will be no birth certificate - baptism is all there is. Usually.
If you didn't know, FMP also has the record for WCD's burial in 1919.
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@Peter5803 - perils of me writing a long reply in case you didn't know FMP! But have you found the odd baptism a page (or two?) later with the reversed names?
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Answers
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Yes I have @Adrian Bruce1. Thank you so much for your kind help. 🙏
The reversed father / son names made my poor old head swim briefly!
I'm wondering if the hand written entry was added in early 1859 and then the typed sheet dated 1948 was inserted as a correction.
It may be a trace of my Grand Father's research, left when he came across the error and set about correcting it.
Does that sound plausible to you?
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@Peter5803 said:
"I'm wondering if the hand written entry was added in early 1859 and then the typed sheet dated 1948 was inserted as a correction."
I'm sure something like that must be the explanation. If you know that your GF did some genealogical work then that increases the odds. Notice that the type-written sheet isn't just something that he typed up - it's an official extract for, or at the request of, the Registrar General. So not something that just got typed up by any old person. And those 1859 entries would have been the only "official" records up to that point and they got the names the wrong way round. Maybe your GF (or whoever suspected the problem) thought that the official records couldn't be right, so requested an extract from the Bellary RC register to compare to the 1859 stuff. That would make a lot of sense....
Very interesting!
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"I'm wondering if the hand written entry was added in early 1859 and then the typed sheet dated 1948 was inserted as a correction."
I'm sure something like that must be the explanation. If you know that your GF did some genealogical work then that increases the odds.
I suspect the 1948 correction was something to do with the relative gathering evidence to prove entitlement to British nationality under the British Nationality Act 1948. People born in British India had automatic entitlement, and usually Bellary would have been considered part of British India. However, I suspect (but cannot say definitely) that Bellary was an area leased by the British but that it was actually physically part of a Princely State (probably Hyderabad) and that under the Act there was no automatic entitlement. If this is so there may be an application at The National Archives under the 1948 Act.
The Society of Genealogists, currently closed, but should be open later this year, also has some records, see https://wiki.fibis.org/w/British_nationality_(born_in_India)
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I suspect the 1948 correction was something to do with the relative gathering evidence to prove entitlement to British nationality under the British Nationality Act 1948.
Yes I’m sure you’re right here @MaureenE123 - I remember my father saying his father went to the British Museum(?) to research his family tree.
I’m in part researching to see if I and my children qualify for Overseas Citizen of India (OCI) status. A parent, GP or GGP must have been born in India but am not sure they are thinking first and foremost of employees of the East India Co and their descendants!
It would be useful to have Birth Certificates but I understand from @Adrian Bruce1 that is unlikely.
Any insights you happen to have on where else I might look for evidence of their lives in India would be very welcome indeed. I’m this of a trip to Karnataka and Kolkata.
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@Peter5803 - the Ecclesiastical Returns (which is one name for the hand-written records on FMP that we've been looking at) are part of the India Office collection held (I don't remember why) by the British Library. However, in the 1940s, when your GF was researching if I understand it right, the BL was still part of the British Museum - physically and organisationally, as I understand it.
@MaureenE123 - your suspicion makes perfect sense to me. As I recollect that's a certified extract of the Bellary baptism and it's been filed with the India Office Ecclesiastical Returns in front of the erroneous Return. Surely none of that would have happened if the research were just for personal interest?
Peter - for the minimal impact of registration in India see https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Birth_and_death_registration and also https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Church_records - these are the Ecclesiastical Returns which effectively act as substitutes for civil registration. I guess that the Ecclesiastical Returns wouldn't have been treated as seriously as they were, if "proper" civil registration was in use.
IIRC your chap was involved with the railways, so one thing in that last FIBIS link that might be relevant (and related to what Maureen says) is this quote...
Some Army (East India Company and Indian Army) cantonments were geographically located outside of British India, in areas in Princely States, leased by the Government in India. However, for record purposes, these cantonments were considered to be part of British India and located in one of the Presidencies. The records from churches in these cantonments will generally be found in the Presidencies' records.
In contrast, railway colonies located in Princely States were not considered to be part of British India, even if the Railway was British-owned, and records will not be found in the Presidency records. A possible source is the Indian States N/5 records mentioned below in Regional breakdown of ecclesiastical records, but many railway colony records are not included. ...
Even for British India, many railway colony records do not appear in the collection at the British Library, and must be sourced, if they still exist, from churches in India.
As for other sources and background, I would absolutely recommend the FIBIS site on https://www.fibis.org/ Bellary, for instance, has its own entry on https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Bellary
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@Peter5803 To know what sources might be helpful you need to know some relevant dates and occupational details.
You may be able to get some details from the church records on Findmypast which contain images which generally have some occupational details. The original records which were sent to the India Office are now held by the British Library. Note Roman Catholic records are under represented, because it was only compulsory for government employed chaplains to send copies of their records to London. Many Roman Catholic churches elected not to.
I suggest you thoroughly read the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Beginners’ Guide, including the links to Occupations , Research methods and Records https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Beginners%27_Guide
Regarding birth certificates, these may be available in some circumstances, for later rather than earlier periods, but you need to have good information about where the birth took place, as registration was on a municipal basis. However, if you were going to India you could try if you thought you had sufficient information, and I would also ask your hotel to put you in touch with someone who could physically help you go to the relevant office and apply. Adrian has mentioned the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Birth and death registration, see his post above.
I also saw the company YourManInIndia mentioned on a Forum about 10 years ago. https://www.yourmaninindia.com/?module=concierge. They will procure Birth certificates, as part of the Concierge Services, but you need to provide full details, as they don’t do any research. Most people do not have the necessary details to use a service like this. At least that was the situation 10 years ago when some people were aware of the service, and would have used it, but did not have the details required. That is the extent of my knowledge about this company.
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Thanks both. Great advice.
FIBIS looks like a grand starting point for an interesting adventure.
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