Help deciphering records
Hi, I have been grappling with Swiss parish registers for the first time and have been fortunate enough to find a number of relatives. However, I'm struggling to decipher some of the handwriting. I am eager to find out more about the origins of Carl Joseph Devit and his wife Judith Wehrlin, who are named in several of these records. In the following extracts from the registers of the Frauminster in Zurich, I can see what look like place names after Carl and Judith's names, but I can't make out what they are. Would anyone here be able to help? I've attached a couple of examples.
It looks like the first two records give Judith's birthplace as Muhlhaus[en] (probably in the Haut-Rhin), but am I wrong? I gather Carl Joseph's origin place begins with a B, but I don't recognise it. I was a little surprised to see what looked the same word (Muhlhaus) appear on the following burial record for one of their children (after Carl had died), so could this be an address in Zurich? (see below)
Am I right in thinking that this burial record for Carl says that he is 54 years and 10 days old? Is there anything else here that might help me?
After Carl died in 1806, his wife Judith had a child out of wedlock - could that record tell me anything else (it's below)?
Finally, Carl's widow Judith remarried in 1813 in Basel (the other records were from Zurich). I've found the following entry in the index of parish registers, but I cannot find the original record - can anyone help?
I am sorry for asking a lot of questions. I have been trying to decipher these for a while and just can't seem to identify these place names (or whatever they are). If anyone can help with any of these queries, I would be very grateful.
Many thanks!
Comments
-
Let me begin with a small correction - the church in Zürich is Fraumünster, not Frauminster. These records are online: it would be generally useful if you could also link to the corresponding pages; it is often helpful to be be able to view neighbouring entries/pages. It would also be helpful (for later reference) to give the post a more detailed title, e.g. "Devitte & Weerli in Zürich".
Carl Josef de Vitte / Devitte / Dewit is from Bayreuth - the only place with this name I can think of is the one in Franken (Bayern), famous for the Wagner Festival (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayreuth).
Judith Weerli is stated to be from Mühlhausen (Alsace, Haut-Rhin). This does not necessarily mean she was born there, could also be that her father held citizenship there, but the family lived somewhere else.
In the death notice there is no Mülhausen mentioned. Carl Joseph Dewit is mentioned as "Musikus" (musician), "(vorgeblich) von Bareith". This looks like the writer did not really understand the location name (Bayreuth) and wrote what he thought he heard (Bareith) - which he didn't recognise, so he added "allegedly" (in brackets).
In his own death notice he is from Baireut again, aged 54 years and 10 days.
Child Joh(ann) Rudolf: Frau Judith Weerli v(on) Mühlhausen, Musikus Joseph Dewit (heimathlos) sel(ig) Witwe. - Gebahr im Toggenburg; verbarg das Kind zu Küßnacht; von daher ward er heute, 14-tägig, aber nicht getauft, hieher gebracht.
The mother gave birth somewhere in the Toggenburg Valley (canton St.Gallen), was first hiding the child in Küs(s)nacht (likely the one in ct. Zürich), and then brought it to the Fraumünster to have it baptised, aged 14 days.
The Basel record states that Judith Devit nee Wehrlin was married in Frenkendorf, which is Basel-Landschaft: the reformed church records are available from https://www.tst.baselland.ch/politik-und-behorden/besondere-behorden/staatsarchiv/archivbestande/Kirchenbuecher/frenkendorf - but there seems to be a gap 1797-1826 in the marriage records, possibly the missing volume 6 :-(.
1 -
First of all, apologies for my misspelling and for the vague title - I'll take on board your advice for the future.
Thank you so much for your help with these records - the revelations about Bayreuth and Mulhouse are particularly helpful. When the Haut-Rhin archives digitise the parish registers for Mulhouse and the surrounding parishes, I will be sure to investigate this further; and I will need to check out Archion for Bayreuth.
I am also intrigued by Devit's occupation as a musician - I hadn't known this before. It's interesting that Judith gave birth in secret in St Gallen; her second and third children with Carl Devit were born in Ebnat (St Gallen) and I have found records of those (the first was baptised in Felben (Thurgau)). I wonder if she had family in St Gallen... A quest for another day!
Thank you for clarifying the marriage place too - I thought the index was for Basel-Stadt only, which was why I was confused! As a final query, my German is really not very good: do you think "unbesetzt" means that the book is now lost? That would be a shame, but I suppose these things happen. Looking at the marriage records either side of the missing period, I am not sure it would have been too helpful at revealing more of her ancestry anyway.
0 -
Ebnat is in the Toggenburg Valley - so it's quite possible that Johann Rudolf was born there as well: may not be family, but still acquaintances where the mother could have stayed. When were the two children baptised in Ebnat ... what about the godparents?
Correct - the index is for Basel-Stadt: this could indicate that the couple lived in the city and the marriage was reported from Frenkendorf to their parish in Basel, and consequently included in the index. Basel had several parishes - you would have to check the known date for all of them.
"unbesetzt" means that the number had not been assigned to a given book. Most likely explanation: the gap (i.e. missing book) was noticed and a "suitable" volume number was left unused - just in case the book turns up later.
1 -
The other children were baptised in Ebnat between 1797 and 1800 (I've attached their baptism records below in case anyone is interested). Your suggestion about the godparents is very plausible - perhaps she had friends their who could have sheltered her during what must have been a difficult time.
Thank you again for clarifying the Basel marriage situation - I shall have a look through all of the Kirchenbuecker, which I believe are available to view on this website. Perhaps there is more out there after all!
As for the volume number, that makes a lot of sense from an archival perspective.
(Just in case you're interested, I am descended from one of their sons, Johann Ulrich, who was baptised in Ebnat in 1800 - his record is below. He moved to the Haut-Rhin in the 1820s, living in Altkirch and then marrying in Illzach in 1826; he subsequently lived in Mulhouse, of which Illzach was a suburb, and remarried after his first wife's death in 1866. The marriage records confirm his birth place and date and the place and dates of his parents' deaths, so I've been working backwards. I had assumed his parents were Swiss until you revealed their German and Alsatian origins, so thank you! I've revisited Johann Ulrich's first marriage record and have noticed that the witnesses included a great-uncle and cousin, both Wehrlins from Illzach!)
0 -
(For some reason, these weren't uploading properly so I've tried to add them as a separate comment).
0 -
As you seem to have problems uploading the screenshots: just quote the exact dates - which then can easily be found in the digitized records (freely viewable from the St.Gallen State Arcive server) ... I'll then post the links.
0 -
Yes - I would be interested in more information about the two children baptised in Ebnat, their ancestors and descendants. Why? I am managing the Toggenburgisches Genealogienwerk (TGW, which I have "inherited"). This includes Ebnat families - but as your ancestor does not belong to the "local families", the name is not yet mentioned. The TGW is part of Geneal-Tree - check https://www.geneal-forum.com/tng/ (searching does not require any registration or the like). You'd be welcome to upload your family tree there yourself (in Gedcom format) - or just let me have the part about this "Ebnat line", which I would then add to the TGW. We don't publish data on persons born after 1920.
0 -
Apologies for the issues with the uploads - I had uploaded the images, but they appear to have disappeared. The relevant register is here: http://www.staatsarchiv-sg.ch/index.php?bid=559
Johann Caspar can be found at image 142 (9 Jul. 1797) with a note to say that he died in 1798.
Johann Caspar (another son) can be found at image 147 (13 Jan. 1799)
Johann Ulrich can be found at image 150 (27 Oct. 1800).
Your Ebnat project sounds interesting. Of the sons born in Ebnat, Johann Caspar died on 13 February 1874 at Cernay (Sennheim), Haut-Rhin, France. On his death record, it states that he had married one Anne Wohlebb, though I have not tried to find more about that. The death record can be found at image 836 here: https://archives.haut-rhin.fr/ark:/naan/a011455803032CBHvt8/ba6ce99644
For Johann Ulrich, he was given permission to reside in France in 1826; see p. 257 of this book: https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Bulletin_des_lois_de_la_R%C3%A9publique_fran/diYUAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Jean+Ulric%22+DeVit&pg=RA2-PA257&printsec=frontcover
Johann Ulrich married on 14 June 1826 at Illzach, Haut-Rhin, France; his wife was (Therese) Francoise Hegly. The record is at images 181-182 here: https://archives.haut-rhin.fr/ark:/naan/a011455803136pBDyIY/c953d93c45
She died on 30 November 1857 at Mulhouse, Haut-Rhin, and Johann Ulrich remarried on 9 August 1866 at Mulhouse; his new wife was Catherine Elizabeth Holzach. The record is at image 540 here: https://archives.haut-rhin.fr/ark:/naan/a011455803149162FF6/3aad60e2f6
Johann Ulrich died on 31 October 1876 at Mulhouse, Haut-Rhin. The record is at image 113 here: https://archives.haut-rhin.fr/ark:/naan/a011455803068EAZ0nO/1a9524519a
With his first wife he had the following children:
1) Charles Joseph (also known as Charles Joseph Anatole or, most commonly, Charles Anatole; b. Altkirch, 17 Oct. 1826; m. Summertown, Oxfordshire, England, 6 Dec. 1859 to Sophia Hinks and had issue; d. Kidderminster, Worcestershire, England, 16 Dec. 1908) - he is my ancestor;
2) Emile Ulric (b. Mulhouse, 4 Jul. 1828);
3) Françoise (b. Mulhouse, 30 Apr. 1830);
4) Josephine (b. Mulhouse, 5 Nov. 1831);
5) Rosalie (b. Mulhouse, 5 Dec. 1833; d. Mulhouse, 23 Apr. 1835);
6) Pierre Emile (b. Mulhouse, 26 Oct. 1836).
I will be glad to share anything that might help you, including links or scans of any documentation. As you saw, Carl and Judith had other children outside Ebnat and I can provide information about their fates too. Many thanks for all your help!
0 -
I've just noticed that my earlier comments duplicated - they had disappeared earlier and then reappeared. Apologies for the confusion. I've just deleted the duplicate posts.
0 -
Thank you for these details.
First - direkt links to the three baptisms in Ebnat:
http://www.staatsarchiv-sg.ch/index.php?bid=559&m=&b=ZVA_12_167_142.jpg
http://www.staatsarchiv-sg.ch/index.php?bid=559&m=&b=ZVA_12_167_147.jpg
http://www.staatsarchiv-sg.ch/index.php?bid=559&m=&b=ZVA_12_167_152.jpg
In 1797 and 1798 the father's profession is given as "Hauslehrer" (tutor) - in his burial entry "Musiklehrer".
Then I had a closer look at the screenshots: misleading is the note that the father of Barbara (born 22.09.1806) had already died 25.05.1805 ... hmmm ... but just on the next page the correct date (25.05.1806) is given ;-).
So what have we got?
Carl Josef Devitt (15.05.1754-25.05.1806)
married 1 (when and where?) Judith Werner (born / died when and where?) with the following children:
09.07.1797 Ebnat: Johann Caspar (died 1798)
13.01.1799 Ebnat: Johann Caspar (died 13.02.1874 in Sennheim/Cernay)
27.10.1800 Ebnat: Johann Ulrich (your ancestor)
Have you got a burial entry for Judith Werner (don't find it in Ebnat)?
Carl Josef Devitt married 2 (when and where?) Judith Wehrlin (born / died when and where?) with the following children:
bap. 25.05.1803 Fraumünster: Dorothea Juditha
bap. 09.07.1805 Fraumünster: Felix Josef (Godfather was Junker Felix von Landenberg, indicating that the father had a fairly high standing)
bap. 25.09.1806 Fraumünster: (Anna) Barbara (died 25.09.1808 in Zürich)
Judith Wehrlin had a son Johann Rudolf out of wedlock, born in the Toggenburg Valley, possibly in Ebnat, baptised 26.03.1809 in ZH-Fraumünster.
Judith Wehrlin married 2 (11.10.1813 in Frenkendorf BL) Friedrich Müller (born / died when and where?).
----------------
I'm a bit confused about Carl Josef Devitt's two(?) wifes Judith Werner and Judith Wehrli/Weerli. The Ebnat records are obviously not the original church records, but later copies. Was the name Wehrli/Weerli misread and erroneously copied as Werner - and consequently both Judiths were the same person?
1 -
Thank you for reading the professions, that's very interesting. I had noticed the discrepancy with regards to the baptism record for Barbara, but I gather it's just a scribal error, as you point out.
Your summary neatly confirms things, thank you. I have also found Judith Wehrlin's burial record from the registers of the Bürgerspital Kirch-Gemeinde. You can see it here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-X468-51?i=188&cc=1640373&cat=270138 at page 189 (entry no. 49 for the year 1846). This gives her year of birth as 1774 and a death date of 17 July 1846 (buried 19 July). I have not found what happened to Mueller yet.
Regarding Judith Werner, I had noticed this in the Ebnat registers but thought it was a mistake. Johann Ulrich and Johann Caspar's French death records and Johann Ulrich's two French marriage records (linked earlier) consistently give Wehrlin as their mother's name. I suppose they could have been brought up believing that a second wife was their mother, but that seems unlikely. Plus, there is the baptism record of another son, Carl Joseph Devit, born to Carl Joseph Devit and Judith Wehrlin and christened at Felben (Thurgau) on 15 May 1796. I don't think the original record has been digitised and made freely available (I might be wrong though), but the registers have been indexed on this site: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FV2V-KQ8?q.givenName=Carl%20Joseph&q.surname=Devit This suggests to me that the registers at Ebnat are wrong, but then it's hard to know without the originals: do you think it's plausible that a second scribe could mistake "Werlin" for "Werner" three times?
It is also worth noting that I believe this Carl Joseph (b. 1796) was buried in the Fraumuenster. See the bottom of p. 49 here (under 18 September): https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/epaper/PRD/SAR/Pfarrbuecher/VIII-C-17_output/web/html5/index.html?pn=49. This is the record immediately after (Anna) Barbara's burial record.
The Wehrlin/Werner issue could be settled if I could find a marriage record, but so far I haven't found one indexed in the Thurgau registers. I should check Ebnat though it's plausible that they married in Wehrlin's native Mulhouse. The pre-1798 parish registers are currently being digitised; all being well, the Departmental Archives should be making them available soon. The ones for Illzach, where several relatives were recorded as witnesses to Johann Ulrich's marriage record, may not be uploaded for a bit longer.
0 -
The burial record of the first Johann Caspar (1797-1798) is here: http://www.staatsarchiv-sg.ch/index.php?bid=559&m=&b=ZVA_12_167_231.jpg
I have just been through the Ebnat marriage records from 1789 to 1800 and haven't found any mention of Devit.
0 -
I'll come back to your last post later. In the meantime I just want to let you know what I have found on Müller of Basel: you have another ggg....uncle, Karl Müller, born 1817 - see attachment.
If you want to explore the Basel Müllers further, the notes of Arnold Lotz might be of interest for you. With Müller being a numerous family with several independent lines, there are three notebooks which might be of interest:
https://query.staatsarchiv.bs.ch/query/detail.aspx?id=430495
https://query.staatsarchiv.bs.ch/query/detail.aspx?id=430565
https://query.staatsarchiv.bs.ch/query/detail.aspx?id=430841
1 -
That's great - thank you so much for sharing that. Indeed, thank you for your sustained interest in my family! Using what you've shared, I've managed to locate the original baptism record for Judith and Karl Friederich's son:
It's here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D4NQ-1LQ?i=285&cc=1640373&cat=258979 (p. 286).
0 -
Thank you for looking this up.
In order to show with these examples, that even primary sources (e.g. church records) may contain errors, I have summarized the information on this family on https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=31344. You may want to register with this forum (free of charge and witout any obligation) and "subscribe" to this topic: you would then be notified by mail when a response is posted. Obvioulsy you would also be welcome to post yourself: English is fine on the forum.
0 -
There already is a response on https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=115539#p115541: Dorothé Judith Devit (born 1803) getting married in 1827 - with her brothers Jean Gaspard and Jean Ulric being witnesses.
0 -
Thanks again - you've been extraordinarily helpful. There's some interesting comments on that forum and definitely some prompts for further research! I will post on here if I ever find a marriage record. If you are interested in any more documentation or information about the family, please let me know.
0 -
WSeelentag, I wondered whether you could help me decipher part of one of the records Peter provided at geneal-net. I have been looking at Johann Rudolf's legitimation request in the Kleiner Rat records here: http://dokumente.stabs.ch/view/2010/Protokolle_Kleiner_Rat_199/#648 I can see that it mentions 1795 but I'm struggling to understand what it's referring to. Is this the date of Judith and Carl's marriage?
0 -
As I am hoping for some comments on several of the details I have transcribed the entire text on https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=31344#p115595 (note: geneal-forum - not geneal-net 😉).
Short answer to your main question: the mother stated that she and Devit got married in Konstanz in August 1795 - but could not provide any proof: she claimed the document was withheld in Zürich - which the commission considered not realistic.
0 -
My impression is that the discussion under https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=31344 has been quite successful. I have therefore started two new topics "Devit in Bayreuth" (https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=31354) and "Wehrli in Mülhausen/Mulhouse-Illzach" (https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=31361) to hopefully get some hints about their ancestors. You may want to "subscribe" to these topics to be informed by mail if responses are posted.
0 -
Thank you very much for all of this, you're transcription has been very interesting. I have replied more fully on geneal-forum (sorry about the name mixup - I was using geneanet that morning!). I agree with you, a very helpful discussion; I'll check in on the other two to see if anyone can help there.
0