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Sealings being done before indivual ordinances are complete
I noticed in the new General Handbook (Section 28.2.3) the following instructions:
"The ordinances of baptism, confirmation, initiatory, and endowment MUST have been performed, either in life or by proxy, before a deceased person can be sealed to a spouse or to his or her parents."
I wonder if the Brethren know that the Family Search software is making it common for this policy to be violated? Both the "Ordinance Ready" feature and the "Perform Next" feature are not in harmony with the General Handbook. Just wondering if there is a separate "Family History Handbook" that trumps the General Handbook?
Answers
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Hi Don,
it is quite correct that ordinances need to be performed before a sealing and all ordinances are needed.
However, the following Article explains that ordinances completed out of order are valid - just do not come into effect until the preceding ordinances have been completed. The Article also leads you to other information that also mentions the validity of ordinances despite them being done out of order
https://www.familysearch.org/en/help/helpcenter/article/correct-order-of-temple-ordinances
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Don
Welcome to the "Community.FamilySearch" Forum.
I am just another 'lowly' User/Patron ...
[ And, I happen to be a Member of the Church ... ]
Further to what 'Diana' has already proffered ...
'Yes', what you provided, is correct ...
Unfortunately, we DO NOT live in a PERFECT World ...
In fact, far from it ...
This is an ongoing dilemma, for many Members of the Church.
The matter, has been canvased, on numerous occasions, in the various 'iterations' for the 'FamilySearch' Forums.
One does not really have to be too concerned ...
We have been advised, that regardless if "Ordinances" are done 'Out of Sequence', not to worry; as, those "Ordinances" that are done 'Out of Sequence' simply DO NOT take effect, UNTIL the prerequisite "Ordinances" are "Completed".
And, most importantly ...
"Ordinances" that are done 'Out of Sequence' DO NOT have to be done again; as, they are STILL "Valid".
Here are some "Knowledge Articles" in 'FamilySearch':
Ordinances performed out of order
https://www.familysearch.org/help/helpcenter/article/ordinances-performed-out-of-order
Which states, among other things:
Quote
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Vicarious ordinances performed out of sequence are valid, but they become effective only after the prerequisite ordinances are completed.
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And ...
Correct order of temple ordinances
https://www.familysearch.org/help/helpcenter/article/correct-order-of-temple-ordinances
Which states, among other things:
Quote
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Vicarious ordinances performed out of sequence are valid, but they become effective only after the prerequisite ordinances are completed.
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And ...
Of course ...
Why are the temple ordinance dates out of order in Family Tree?
Where it states, among other things:
Quote
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- The ordinances were inadvertently or intentionally performed out of order in error.
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Plus ...
Most IMPORTANTLY ...
In one of the aforementioned "Knowledge Article":
Ordinances performed out of order
https://www.familysearch.org/help/helpcenter/article/ordinances-performed-out-of-order
Which states, among other things:
Quote
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It is preferable to have the ordinances done in sequence
[ Note: The Words ... It is preferable ]
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And ...
In the other of the aforementioned "Knowledge Article":
Correct order of temple ordinances
https://www.familysearch.org/help/helpcenter/article/correct-order-of-temple-ordinances
It also states, among other things:
Quote
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A deceased couple can be sealed before their individual ordinances are done. Likewise, a deceased child can be sealed to deceased parents before the parents are sealed and before the parents’ individual ordinances are done.
If a sealing ordinance was done out of order, you should simply make sure that the rest of the ordinances get done . You do not need to report the issue to FamilySearch Support. Nor do you need to redo the sealing. The sealing becomes valid after the individual ordinances are done.
[ And, once again ... ]
Vicarious ordinances performed out of sequence are valid, but they become effective only after the prerequisite ordinances are completed.
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Now ...
All That Said ...
As proffered by 'Gordon' ...
Here is a reference, specifically about "OrdinancesReay", regarding "Sealing to Spouse".
"Knowledge Article", in 'FamilySearch':
How do I find family names for the temple with Ordinances Ready?
It also states, among other things:
Quote
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Before you start
Notes:
- Ordinances Ready does not determine if pre-requisite ordinances have been completed when sealing-to-spouse ordinances are requested. Please ensure that baptism, initiatory and endowment have been completed for each individual before proceeding with a sealing ordinance.
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So ...
That Said ...
Really ...
The choice is yours ...
As, to whether or not, you proceed, with the "Ordinances", that you received through "OrdinancesReady".
Plus ...
As an aside ...
Some Users/Patrons, may be DIRECTLY "Related" to either, the Husband; or, the Wife; and, therefore, consider, according to THEIR understanding, of the "Policies" and "Directions", for "Temple" Work, that they CAN do, the "Sealing to Spouse"; but, should NOT do, the OTHER (in fact, Prerequisite, Work), for the other party; as, they are NOT directly related to the other party - and, they CANNOT be forgiven, for such consideration/thinking.
And ...
Remember, that the "Temple" Work, of "Sealing to Parents", relates to the Child; and, NOT, the to Parents.
So ...
That Said ...
Regardless, of the status, of "Temple" Work, of the Parents, the "Sealing to Parents", for a Child, CAN be undertaken.
I know, that this might not give you comfort and address your concerns; but, I hope that this gives you some additional, insight; and, more perspective.
Brett
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Back to the original comment: "The ordinances of baptism, confirmation, initiatory, and endowment must have been performed, either in life or by proxy, before a deceased person can be sealed to a spouse or to his or her parents."
Yes if out of order the ordinances are valid when all are complete, but surely if somebody wants to do a sealing out of order FamilySearch should have a pop up to say 'other ordinances need to be completed first'?
It would make so much sense.
Julie
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Julie
Question: WHY, is such needed?
Should not, the responsibly, lie with the particular User/Patron - ie. Doing their "Due Diligence" ...
And, more importantly ...
We have been advised, that "Sealings", can be (and, are/have been, often) done, out of order/sequence ...
And, regardless, those "Sealings", are "Valid"; and, DO NOT, have to be redone ...
Just my thoughts,
Brett
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See Ron Tanner's Q and A session for March 17, 2022: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmEx6uMvSUs&t=3009s
He addresses this question at time mark 45:24.
To summarized his answer: At this point in time, that section of the handbook does not apply to ordinances given to you by Ordinances Ready.
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I still feel that Ordinances Ready needs to be set up so that the ordinances are truly ready, to be done in the right order as they should be.
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Who knows, maybe they are working on a revision that will do this. Between sketching out the logic, programing, and testing, it shouldn't take more than a couple of years.
In the meantime, if we feel strongly about sticking with the strict order that we do with names that we have found, entered into Family Tree, and reserved, then we should use Ordinances Ready only as a finding aid to find a family for whom we can complete all the ordinances. In that situation, we should also be sure that the people we are completing ordinances for really are related to us. Ordinances Ready will sometimes give us names of people to whom we are not related if it can't find anyone else for us.
Otherwise we should be comfortable with Ron confirming that the current functioning of Ordinances Ready, even if not ideal, does have the approval of the temple committee and the First Presidency
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