Help translating marriage record year 1769 and question
I would appreciate help to finish my transcription and translation of the record for Hans Küenzi and Maria Streit year 1769 from the parish Kirchdorf, Bern. I finally found this record that lists the year Hans and Maria were probably married! BTW I haven't found the actual marriage record which would be helpful. The record is for "Schein gegeben" which I learned recently means the groom Hans and bride Maria appeared together and each would have been asked if they "agreed to the marriage".
Thank you!
den. 2. Octob. [1769]
dem Hans Küenzi von Jaberg und Maria Streit aus d[er] Insel den Schein gegebe[n]: aus di? ?
The 2nd of October [1769]
The Hans Küenzi citizen of Jaberg and Maria Streit from the Insel gave the certificate from ?
Question:
I think that Hans Küenzi and "Maria" Streit in this record are the same parents as Hans Küenzi and "Mareÿ" Streit in the 1783 baptism record for Christina Küenzi and the 1808 marriage record for Christina Küenzi and Hannu Baumgartner. I'll list my reasons as follows:
Mareÿ/Maria Streit is listed as a citizen of Kirchdorf in her daughter Christina's marriage and baptism records. However in this Schein record for Maria and Hans the citizenship place is not listed for Maria only that she was from "the Insel".
Hans Küenzi is listed as a citizen of Jaberg in Christina's baptism record but in Christina's marriage record it's not clear if his citizenship is listed. There is only a citizenship listed after Mareÿ's name. However Hans citizenship in this Schein record is listed as Jaberg.
I found four baptism records for children with the parents Hans Küenzi and "Maria" Streit in Kirchdorf parish (same parish and church book as Christina's baptism).
The source is: Tauf-Rodel 1739 -1791, Staatsarchiv Bern, K Kirchdorf 3. Here is the year/page number/entry number for the four children if you want to see the records: 1777, page 120, entry 15; 1779, page 128, entry 17; 1781, page 137, entry 27; 1788, page 165, entry 25.
In the four baptism records the mother's name is "Maria" not "Mareÿ" so that is a discrepancy. However, the place of citizenship for both parents is the same as in Christina's baptism record. Two of the other baptism records include the same occupation Schifmann for the father as was listed in Christina's baptism. Lastly, one of the other children's baptism record lists the mother as being from "the Insel" which matches the Schein record for Maria and Hans.
Sorry that this question is so long! I think that there is enough information that matches to conclude that all of these records are for the same parents and children including Christina Küenzi. Even though the mother's name Mareÿ/Maria isn't spelled the same, it is similar. Also the parents marriage Schein record in 1769 was before all of the children were born.
What do you think about the name discrepancy for Mareÿ/Maria and do you think these records are for the same family?
Willkommen!
Beste Antwort
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First comment: the second image has no connection to the other three images.
Dem Hans Küenzi von Jaberg und Maria Streit aus d(er) Insel den Schein gegeben auf Dießbach. ni fallor.
The pastor didn't receive a "Schein" - he handed one out - to be given (to the pastor) in Diessbach. "ni fallor" (if I read it correctly) would be Latin and say "I am not wrong" … no idea what this is supposed to mean in the context.
The corresponding marriage took place in Oberdiessbach on 06 Oct 1769.
And yes - I agree - this is the same family: Mareÿ is extremely unusual (have never seen it before) and I assume other pastors (not familiar with that spelling either) just wrote Maria.
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Antworten
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I added the second image (Tauf-Rodel ... ) as a source for the children's baptism records, thinking it would be helpful to find the records that I used to prove the family relationships. A comment about the source would help others to understand what the image was for. I'll add a comment about sources in my future posts so that others can know which record a source is referring to. : )
Thank you for the corrections to my transcription and for your explanation about the Schein. That is helpful in understanding the meaning of the translation!
I searched for the marriage record in Kirchdorf parish but it didn't dawn on me to look in Oberdiessbach parish. Thank you very much for finding the record, I so appreciate it! I will request help to translate the record and maybe there is a bit of new information that will be helpful. I can see that the parents names are not listed but it's still good to have the record.
I appreciate your explanation about Mareÿ's name and possibly why the pastors would have changed the spelling. Thank you very much for confirming that this is the same family. That's really helpful. These records make it possible to link Christina Küenzi with her parents and siblings and there are baptism records for her eight siblings in the church book. Thank you again!
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"I will request help to translate the record and maybe there is a bit of new information that will be helpful."
Do you mean the marriage record in Oberdiessbach (above)? You already realised yourself that it doesn't give much detail:
Johannes Küenzli von Jaberg, Kirchhöri Kilchdorf
Maria Streit von daselbst (= same parish)
I find "Kirchhöri Kilchdorf" amusing: Kilch is the Swiss dialect version of Kirch (even today, in many regions people would say "Chile" instead of "Kirche") ... so why Kilchdorf (= Kirchdorf) but Kirchhöri = Kirchgemeinde (parish)?
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I meant the marriage record in Oberdiessbach but for us "non-German speakers" it's not so easy to glace at a record and understand it fully! Thanks again for the translation. That's interesting about the dialect and the reason for Kilch being a version of Kirch. I see why it doesn't make sense that Kirchhöri would be a version of Kirchgeneinde - the words are so different.
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I have written a short text on Kirchgemeinde and Kirchhöri as synonymous words for parish - see https://community.familysearch.org/de/discussion/comment/464377/#Comment_464377.
On https://www.geneal-forum.com/phpbb/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=31958 I have discussed the "ni fallor": this is likely to be interpreted as "I believe - but am not sure" - written in Latin as the pastor didn't want everyone to be able to understand his comment 😉. Actually - the marriage didn't take place in Diesbach (as written), but Oberdiessbach (another parish).
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Your comment in General Glossary about the synonyms Kirchgemeinde or Kirchhöri is interesting. It's helpful to know that "Kirchgemeinde Kirchdorf" and "Kirchhöri Kilchdorf" have the same meaning in church records. I especially appreciate the information about the effect of dialects on Swiss German words and their pronunciation!
Thanks for the link to Auswandern-Schweiz. It helps to actually hear the word "Chile". And "Chuchichäschtli" is a real "mouthful"!
I read the discussion (translated to English) about "ni fallor" on Geneal-Forum. That was helpful to understand the meaning of the Latin words in the Schein record and possibly what the words were referring to. Also, it was interesting to learn that the Priests wrote in Latin to communicate comments that were only meant for other Priests to understand.
Thank you so much for all of the information. I appreciate it!
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