Is This Wrong?
Please answer to @ColinM0288 as this is his question that I brought over here. @Graham Buckell
First tell me to go away if I annoy you all too much.
I really do try to do my fiduciary bit to answer questions myself. But I guess I'm easily stumped.
Let me summarize the problem.
Summery: (most of which is based on advice given by Adrian Bruce1)
We have found a record from a census that everything appears right but they have put a middle initial incorrectly for the person. Unless I'm wrong, very good chance of that. Being uneducated in this things I wanted your opinions.
So you have helped me get on board with GRO and freebmd.org.uk which seem helpful in their own ways.
Specific Data:
Herbert Wilfred (or Wilfrid) Hall it appears was born to Mother "Perry" We learned this from GRO. He was born in 1884 in Pontypridd Wales.
We look up the name Hall in freebmd.org.uk we get the husbands name. James Hall.
Now I KNOW that Herbert's fathers Name was "James Hall" based on Herbert's Marriage certificate. That is a FACT. So from this we know as far as these records are concerned that Perry Sarah Ann Married Hall James. in 1884.
I could not find Census info on freebmd, but on Ancestry, James Hall and Sarah Ann in 1891 in Pontypridd, I get the following on the following two pages.
Here is the problem:
The name for son Herbert is " Herburt a " Now I dont have a problem with Herburt "U" but the "A" seems so far off. Now for father James, on page one it says that he is a Railway Engine Driver. And on the marriage certificate for son Herbert it says that father James is a witness and is a "Engine Driver" Thus, the age of Herbert is right, e.g. he is 7 now and was born in 1884, the Mother seems right, father seems right, location seems right.
Soooo,
Do you think this is the census for Herbert W Hall? It does provide a lot of info eg. Unknown family members. I tried looking for a Herbe(u)rt A Hall born in the same time but could not find one. If the name has been transcribed incorrectly then you would not find a birth by this name or time period.
BTW ...
BTW the listing of Herbert is wrong in listing of this record in Ancestry, and who knows how much this has been replicated down the line. I cant see if freebmd has census, reports, but if you look at ancestry you see two errors in my opinion, see below. Herburta should be Herburt a, and Fall should be Hall. If you look at it, yes it could be Fall I suppose, and I'm no judge of another's work. But logic and the writing I think says Hall.
Sorry for my verbosity. But I must talk it out in my head to make sense of it all. And this is helpful to me.
Regards.
Kommentare
-
@ColinM0288 I believe you can say with certainty that this is the correct Herbert Hall in the 1891 census. It couldn't be just coincidental that all of the data matches except for the "A" not being a "W". It seems that in every census from 1881 to 1911, the family is in the same civil district of Pontypridd. FreeBMD has really helpful guides to help you understand the places within a district:
Also, use this website to map out exactly where they lived. For example, if you search for Ferndale (Herbert's birthplace according to censuses), you can see that it is a small town in the parish of Rhondda. Notice also "Ardwyn Terrace" on the map, where the family lived in 1901:
Church baptismal records would provide the proof you need, but I could not find any digitized church records for Ferndale. I believe the family attended the Ferndale Wesleyan church as two of Herbert's sisters were married there. Search this free Welsh newspaper database with keyword "Ferndale" and then search those results with "James Hall".
2 -
**** Thank you very much for your help.
I did wonder what denomination "Welsh" people were. Wales is a considerable mystery to me. Also locations to a non local are confusing, and they do seem to mention the same place in a number of ways.
Yes baptisms are helpful but not always easy for me to find. It is interesting that in the 1891 census James Herbert's father lists his birth place as follows, Somerset ????? not sure what the last word is.
And in 1881 as Somerset although again its not perfectly clear, but the transcribers have put it as Somerset England.
and then in 1911 Census it has been transcribed Compton Bishop, Somerset England, which is very clear.
My point being that James was, and I don't live in UK so excuse my understanding of nationalities, was technically from England not Wales. Is that right to say, I don't want to offend anyone. Listen the whole UK, England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales thing is as confusing as heck to me. However his wife Sarah was from Cardiff, Wales. Now Compton Bishop appears to be the other side of the Bristol Channel. Not far away but not Wales. Also, my relative, Herbert Wilfred Hall, met his wife in Bristol, and was married there, as did my grandmother who met her husband, a Jones, he was clearly Welsh background. So there was a lot of back and forth in that area of Welsh-English peoples. As you would assume there was after all it's not like there is a border. So maybe some baptisms, marriages were in different places?
Aannyway I'm really thinking loudly and trying to sort out my heritage. It seems I have more connection to Wales than I thought. mmm I guess I'm going to have to take, Welsh lessons.... NOT.
Thank you very very much.
0 -
I can confirm that there was quite a bit of movement between south Wales and the English counties of Somerset, Gloucestershire and Devon. Most of this movement was connected with the mining industry where miners moved to find work (especially if a mine ran out). I am sure that you can find fuller explanations on the net if you google it.
2 -
@ColinM0288 Actually, most Welsh went along with the rest of England and were part of the state church, the Church of England (Anglican). All the churches outside of the state church were called non-conformist. Keep in mind that marriages performed in a non-conformist church before 1837 were not recognized by the state so most were married in the Church of England. There are non-conformist records online on several websites, including FamilySearch and Ancestry but I could not find any baptisms, marriages, or burials for the Ferndale Wesleyan. However, there are many Anglican records online and can be found in the catalog at FamilySearch. Most are unindexed but in chronological order so you can easily search them. Here is how to find the records for Compton Bishop where you could look for James, as it's very possible that his parents had him christened:
1 -
Thank you very much for your continued advice. Its very interesting. James was a Locomotive driver so I'm guessing probably lugged coal around. I did not know about the non-conformist title. I will try to see what else I can find.
Now I'm trying to understand, am I on the British Family Search or where? I can't see anything in the url that tells me that. It makes sense that most of my searches are in UK that I put my questions on a UK site. I had to log in to the British site so I assume I am on a British site, but how can I tell. Or am I (as my wife frequently says "Confused".)
Regards
0 -
Hello Colin,
I am so happy you were able to get the help you were seeking. You are in the England Research group of FamilySearch Community. When you first ask your question you were on the FamilySearch Community Home page before I sent you the link for this group. If you go to the FamilySearch Community Home page you will see a tab for groups, that is where you are. We have a Wales Research group, Ireland Research Groip, Scotland Research Group and a British Isle Research group as well as many US Research Groups, European Research Groups and many more. We are here to help each other in doing research and are so happy you are here. Please let us know if we can help you more and go have a look around at the other Research Groups the FamilySearch Community has to offer.
Kind Regards,
Shannon
0 -
Thank you. That helps. I see that now with your direction and have joined a few groups targeting the appropriate locations.
I have gone from 0 to 60 in a short time to try to understand the DB's, this one and that one and then the groups which I have found friendly and helpful. As one person told me and I quote "Seriously, you need to learn a bit more about genealogy for England & Wales." Well I do. but sometimes the best way for me to learn is to hit your head and ask questions. I will probably have more.
Thanks again.
1 -
@ColinM0288 I am happy that we were able to help you. There is a lot to learn with England and Wales and I am learning right next to you. I hope you find the FamilySearch Community Research Groups very helpful in your further research.
Shannon
1 -
@ColinM0288 I think that this article in Wikipedia may interest you. It explains a fair bit about Somerset and how it had been called Somersetshire in the past.
"Somerset originally formed part of Wessex and latter became a separate "shire". Somersetshire seems to have been formed within Wessex during the 8th century though it is not recorded as a name until later".
I hope you continue to find out more about your ancestors here and in the Wales Community groups.
Kind regards,
Jill2021
1 -
Hey thanks.
1
